SOLEDAD: LOVE IT OR HATE THE IRS, WELL ACTUALLY LET’S BE REAL -- NOBODY LOVES THE IRS. BUT IT DOES PERFORM THE NECESSARY FUNCTION OF COLLECTING TAXES, WHICH MEANS WE CAN HAVE THINGS LIKE BRIDGES, MEDICAL RESEARCH AND EDUCATION. IMPORTANT STUFF. WITH LESS FUNDING OVER THE YEARS, THE AGENCY HAS DOWNSIZED ITS STAFF AND IS USING OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY. MEANING LONGER WAIT TIMES TO SPEAK WITH AN IRS AGENT, IF YOU CAN GET THROUGH AT ALL. LAST YEAR, THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT BECAME LAW, GIVING THE IRS 80 BILLION DOLLARS. THE MONEY WILL BE USED OVER THE NEXT DECADE TO HIRE MORE STAFF AND MODERNIZE THE AGENCY. SUSAN LONG IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY. AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE TRANSACTIONAL RECORDS ACCESS CLEARINGHOUSE, OR TRAC. SHE’S BEEN STUDYING IRS RECORDS SINCE THE 1970S. SUSAN LONG, SO NICE TO HAVE YOU. TAKE ME BACK TO THE 1970S WHEN YOU STARTED REALLY TRACKING, IF YOU WILL, THE IRS. WHY DID YOU START? WHAT INFORMATION WERE YOU LOOKING FOR? >> WELL, I WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON BACK THEN, BUT I WANTED DATA FOR MY DISSERTATION LOOKING AT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF TAX AUDITS. SOLEDAD: YOUR ORGANIZATION FOUND IN 2021 THAT PEOPLE WHO MADE LESS THAN $25,000 WERE BEING AUDITED AT A RATE FIVE TIMES HIGHER THAN OTHER AMERICANS. WHY ARE LOWER INCOME AMERICANS BEING TARGETED IN THIS WAY? >> WELL, BECAUSE THEY’RE REALLY EASY MARKS. THEY TOOK THE ANTI POVERTY EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT AND IRS CAN SEND THEM A LETTER IN THE MAIL AND ASK A LOT OF COMPLICATED QUESTIONS. AND IF THOSE TAXPAYERS DON’T RESPOND BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE ANYONE TO ASSIST THEM AND THEY CAN’T GET THROUGH ON THE PHONE LINES, THEY’RE STUCK AND THEY END UP HAVING THE MONEY ASSESSED AGAINST THEM. SOLEDAD: SO DO YOU THINK BY ADDING MONEY TO THE IRS AND GETTING MORE PEOPLE JUST TO ANSWER THE PHONES, IT’S ACTUALLY GOING TO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THAT $25,000 AND LOWER INCOME BRACKET TO BE AUDITED LESS FREQUENTLY, OR AT LEAST TO HAVE A BETTER OPTION IN NAVIGATING THOSE LETTERS? >> YES, I DO THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. SOLEDAD: THERE IS ACTUALLY THIS MASSIVE GAP, RIGHT, IN COLLECTIONS. WHAT CAUSES THAT GAP AND HOW COME THEY’RE NOT COLLECTING IT? >> THAT TAKES IRS HIRING REVENUE AGENTS. THOSE ARE EXPERIENCED, HIGHLY QUALIFIED PEOPLE THAT CAN AUDIT THESE COMPLICATED RETURNS. BASICALLY, THEIR STUDIES MAY SHOW TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS POTENTIALLY IF NOTHING IS DONE WITHIN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS. AND TO COLLECT IT, YOU’VE GOT TO AUDIT WHERE THE MONEY IS. THAT IS THE MILLIONAIRES AND THE BIG COMPANIES. SOLEDAD: THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO I THINK ARE CONCERNED THAT ACTUALLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THAT THE IRS WILL START TARGETING MORE MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS WITH AUDITS AND NOT NECESSARILY GO AFTER THE VERY RICH PEOPLE. DO YOU THINK THAT’S A VALID CONCERN? >> MOST TAXPAYERS HAVE A W-2 AND YOUR MONEY IS WITHHELD AND THEY ARE 1099S THAT TELL IRS, YOU KNOW, WHAT OTHER KINDS OF MONEY YOU HAVE RECEIVED. THEY PROMISE, RIGHT, THAT IN FACT, NO ONE THAT IS MAKING LESS THAN $400,000 WILL BE AUDITED MORE. SOLEDAD: I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I FIND TAXES SO COMPLICATED. >> OH, I AGREE. BUT THAT’S CONGRESS. IF WE WANT SOMETHING THAT IS EASIER TO COMPLY WITH, WE SHOULD BE TALKING TO OUR SENATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES. IRS, YOU KNOW, THEY’RE JUST HANDED THE L